The wetlands trust group is not a good barometer for community sentiment. They will oppose any development.

The homeowners in belmont shore, naples, and the peninsula (i.e. the folks most affected by development in the area) almost universally agree something needs to be done with the existing property.

Generally speaking any viable development will have increased traffic. So that isn't the issue. The question is what do we get in return. Will we get high end retail so we don't have to drive to South Coast? Will we get a botique hotel so our visiting family and friends finally have a decent place to stay? Will the developer beautify the gateways into the area? Will the developer mitigate traffic in meaningful ways?

If the answers to the above are yes then I think a lot of people are open to giving a bit on the seadip plan from the 70s. 12 stories probably won't fly but I imagine a compromise can be achieved.

To above lbresident. You mispelled "Boutique" Hotel.
Everyone agrees that something should be done with PCH and 2nd.
One reason Lennar left was because of public opposition as well as the entitlements required. Many residents wanted a lovely low rise hotel and the city would probably make more on bed tax than what the developers envision....with mixed use, condos, hotel, office space, an above ground parking structure etc. And with a low rise project, the developers would not need to skirt zoning laws. However, greed always raises it's ugly head!
FYI Although the developer has some nice sketches of what the gateways into Long Beach should look like, they admitted last night (Wetlands meeting) that they are not the ones who would do the beautification!!. They said they only put it in the presentation so that "someone" might get the idea to do it. LAME!

They should title this proposal 'Fantasy Land'', because the design team is dreaming if they think they can pull this one off. Let the war rage on, we are rested and ready. We really need to find a better Councilman too, soon.

Lennar admitted to our legal team, that they would be pleased to obtain Coastal approval on 'half' of their far too dense proposal. This new plan is obscenely dense, fraught with resident quality of life negatives, and it will most certainly have many negative impacts upon the Wetlands, the ocean, already miserable traffic,overall air quality, light ,air and view, our Coastal resources, and the delicate balance of nature. All of which will be,as always, incapable of mitigation.

This new plan is the fruit of DeLongs' woeful inexperience, naivety and bias towards pleasing and profiting a well connected minority on his committee to elect. Marina Del Rey DeLong and his quest for hyper density ! And Miss Frick's distain for 'Short Squatty Buildings". Only in Wrong Beach !!

Guys, we like safe, quiet living out here? The original Master Plan that we all bought our homes and properties under the protections of, had our low density, quiet, spread out 'bedroom community' urban design on purpose !!, AS A TRADE OFF FOR ALL THE MASSING AND DENSITY DOWNTOWN ? And as a counterweight or trade off for all of the pollution, noise, traffic, crime, trash, lack of view, lack of breeze, etc.? on the West side and downtown.

Again and again, DeRong attempts things which are voted down, fail, anger residents , waste tax dollars and time, or result in litigation. We are certain that this present proposal will generate more opposition than the 'Wetlands Home Depot ''Design'' Center. Especially when you view this as the template for redeveloping Marina Pacifica,The Golden Sails, the Mobile Estates, the Lease land around the Marina from Hoff's to Khoury's, and everything else they are looking at. Stay tuned and 'Welcome to Playa Del Rey' !!, wrong beach style..

So let's be clear, Lennar, under Colonna, wasted 3 years and millions trying 3 stories over a mall, with underground, hidden parking in an expensive bath tub. This was WAY to much massing, so, elect 'Go Go Gary', put the parking all above ground, and add 8 to 12 stories, brilliant. Induce as many visitors as possible too. Why don't we do it on a piece of Park Estates ?,( where the Councilman is repaving nearly all of the streets and most of the curbs)

Take a hunk of Big Rec and build a Mall Gary? Run light rail to it ? Build another field office on the 12th floor. We'll call that 'The Delongeria''

So we need to double or triple the overall area density, under SEADIP 2, and do this on and around an intersection which peaks every Summer, often, as the busiest, most travelled stretch of road in all of LA County, yes all 100 square miles?. We already have 7 intersections choked dangerously at Level Of Service F, and worse. Others close at a nearly impossible LOS E. Wait until we need to evacuate in an emergency, how many lawyers would want that case.

' Save Our Bay' and many on our team , mobilized over 5,000 to stop BANCAP, and Msrs. Conolly , Hancock and friends to stop a 4 story Hotel idea where Khoury's now stands. The buzz is this latest idea could be 3 times as dense? , Consensus is emerging that as least double the opposition signatures are possible here, if necessary, and as planned. And Chip Connoly, who's dad chaired Gary's Committee to elect, gets to re try the Hotel idea again ?. We'll see. Gary has many huge conflicts of interest, and should have recused himself a long time ago.

If you want to re do 2nd and PCH, BE FAIR, follow SEADIP as planned and generate no more traffic then the original Hyatt did, when it was the nicest Hotel in town. And be realistic about finally funding the decades of planned, deferred, and never built traffic mitigation in the area. Without overpassing at least 2 intersections, and widening several bridges, acquiring setbacks, doubling several on and off ramps, you are dreaming ! Sorry

Now watch as the Wetlands are used as leverage, or a fulcrum for huge entitlements ?

This wild idea, and allowing the Wetlands to pass to a developer, when not one of the rest of us were even allowed to submit an offer,and all of the rest of Gary's, quiet, secret disregard for the majority of the residents around here, is probably close to critical mass needed to recall him.

We are fairly sure that we can stall this bohemoth until we at least run the re election clock on this 'One Termer'., or we could prioritize a presently well funded recall?

Lets take a guess at how much of the proposed infrastructure bond will be dedicated to making the Seaport project “financially viable” for this latest developer. Our new property tax assessment will be used to line the pockets of another LB “developer” that will give us another substandard project that increases traffic and air pollution. Only in LB.

Hey Coastal Advocate....you are so right on!! The Hyatt Edgewater used to be one of the best hotels in town. Ever since Taki-Sun took it over...a real loser! I mean ELVIS stayed at the Hyatt!! There are alot of old hotels who
have done the upkeep. landscaping etc AND are famous! I mean. look at the Bel Air Hotel. ( #3 in California, (Conde Nast) ...not new ...hey-but gorgeous) Not Taki-Sun who are now the Lead Developers(with Malmuth and Ratkovich), who have left this poor parcel turn to blight!! Driving down 2nd street it looks like crap with broken light poles, exposed ducting. WHO could trust them, (Taki-Sun) as lead developers If they can't even do basic maintence. Gimme a break!
And, Coastal Advocate, although I missed the Wetlands meeting presentation I did attend the BSRA meeting as well as DeLongs Yatch meeting...the majority were opposed to this high-rise plan.
And perhaps, Coastal Advocate, you should look at the people involved-who give the presentations:

Cliff Ratkovich- Peninsula guy...was involved in the "Pike Project" in the early 90"s
David Malmuth Although he "dumps" on Lennar-he was involved with Lennar since inception and during all planning.
And then, Carl Kemp, good looking but he was with the city and also the port-lots of contacts- and NOW he is a registered lobbyist with Englander and Associates..smart thinking -hiring him!.

Hey Coastal Advocate....you are so right on!! The Hyatt Edgewater used to be one of the best hotels in town. Ever since Taki-Sun took it over...a real loser! I mean ELVIS stayed at the Hyatt!! There are alot of old hotels who
have done the upkeep. landscaping etc AND are famous! I mean. look at the Bel Air Hotel. ( #3 in California, (Conde Nast) ...not new ...hey-but gorgeous) Not Taki-Sun who are now the Lead Developers(with Malmuth and Ratkovich), who have left this poor parcel turn to blight!! Driving down 2nd street it looks like crap with broken light poles, exposed ducting. WHO could trust them, (Taki-Sun) as lead developers If they can't even do basic maintence. Gimme a break!
And, Coastal Advocate, although I missed the Wetlands meeting presentation I did attend the BSRA meeting as well as DeLongs Yatch meeting...the majority were opposed to this high-rise plan.
And perhaps, Coastal Advocate, you should look at the people involved-who give the presentations:

Cliff Ratkovich- Peninsula guy...was involved in the "Pike Project" in the early 90"s
David Malmuth Although he "dumps" on Lennar-he was involved with Lennar since inception and during all planning.
And then, Carl Kemp, good looking but he was with the city and also the port-lots of contacts- and NOW he is a registered lobbyist with Englander and Associates..smart thinking -hiring him!.

Some thoughts on the above:

l.Few doubt the need for a quality destination hotel at this end of town.In my
view that is not at issue.
2.The referenced boutique hotel that had been proposed for where the Marine
Bureau Headquarters is located made-and still does make- eminent sense.
It would have been a perfect fit,While the limited amount of space could yield
and attractive ROI for the City and developer as a hotel-it is unsuited for any
other type of business.With all due respected to City personnel,they do not
need to be located on such prime ocean front property.

3. A CONDO CANYON ALONG MARINA DRIVE WILL NEVER HAPPEN!!!!!

4.Talk of up scale shops from the likes of Brooks Brothers to Bonwit Teller
et el are unrealistic.Such stores would be here-quicker than Laura Richardson
can catch a plane for yet another junket -if Long Beach had the economic and
demographic base to support such. But it does not.It imports to much poverty.

5.What then do we if we do not go for the above as suggested in number 2?
GO FOR THE BOLD!!!!!

a.Do not tip toe around the tulips.Do-not go up four,seven,twelve stories at
PCH and SECOND.GO UP TWENTY STORIES!!!!!-with a restricted foot
print:Running along 2ND STREET-FROM PCH TO MARINA DR with foot
print being not bigger than the hotel currently at Ocean and Pine-with a
pedestrian walk way over Marina Drive to the WATER'S EDGE-which would
be the name of the new hotel.Have City and State stipulate that no other
building above the CURRENT limit can.may,will be permitted for at least
99 years.


b.Nothing gets started unless and until needed traffic infrastructure is in
place.

c.HERE IS KICKER:Sell the balance of land to State to give back to City
to ENLARGE THE MARINA!!!!!!!!(money is always there for such projects)
Essentially the Marina would come up to about where the main portion of
the existing hotel is.Of course portions of Marina Drive would be re routed.


6.As for the disconnected De Le Long.While he was the best of a bad lot
(on election day)...surely-surely the Third District has better.My suggestion
is a replacement be found in time to allow Gary to step down and we have a
special election in November 08.He is clearly over his head-was and is
near clueless as to what it takes to do the job.

Laurence B. Goodhue
Long Beach
Resident since 1978.

PS:Beat me up on the ideas-but not on any spelling.Tis been a long day!!!

lbresident ---- If you believe this project proposal will attract retail similar to South Coast Plaza, I have another bridge to sell you.

Thanks and Right On surfer Meg . I worked with an older guy, Ken Franks, who waited on Elvis there. He got a 50 buck tip , in 1969, for one room service visit.....yep...fried banana and peanut butter sandwiches...LOL . Why they never dedicated an Elvis suite has long puzzled us. Many other cool folk hung there too.

The KONA KAI club on Shelter Island, in San Diego is a premier destination. I grew up there in the Summer. It has the same Architects Design and style, but it has been tastefully modernized along the way. Modesty, functionality, cleanliness and taste are key. Plus a connection to all of the history and the emerging eco tourism field, for example. The present managers are slum lords. They just may not know better too. We here they are now fronting. Help us ask around.

We could easily spec out a gorgeous retro Hotel there. Retro, earthtone Paint , articulation, lighting , rehab, new water facilities and landscaping would go a long way One or two of the wings could be redone at 2 stories, and maybe one commercial row, the size of petco and wild oats, kind of parallel or something. Why Gary thinks he can just hand 10s of Millions to certain friends is heinous. Who can't print money lifting reasonable zoning in favor of mega density.

Why Josh Loenthawl and taki sun did not have to enclose and wall off those ducts, is another, only in Long Beach deal. Building and safety should cite them tomorrow......plus there is a lot of lost efficiency with those ducts hanging in the wind like that !! Welcome to Norwalk !!

We have thousands in our data bases, limitless time and money, friends and connections all over, and we will fight this relentlessly. This little click does not run this town, and they do not pay our bills either. They need us, we don't need them.

I swear, Viagra and Cialis must have some lingering mental affect !!

Will Gary ever learn that he has been played like a violin? Used like a 'tool', and that he too, will be tossed in the dustpile, as soon as he is no longer connected,profitable or expedient?

Watch how they cut and run when the recall gains momentum...

I feel that brevity should prevail in these comments. Some are longer than the District's article. Let's grow up people. The Developers are not giving these presentations for their health, it is part of an obligatory public outreach program to explain to the public their vision of 2nd and PCH. It may not be your vision but the city of Long Beach is solidly behind them. They would not enter into this with outreach, an expensive website, and sophisticated power presentation if that were not the case. Yes, they are probably offering incentives to certain groups who "go along". What's new? And what about traffic-there will always be traffic. A bit more won't hurt.

Some feel this might be a good thing for east Long Beach. More tax revenue for the city as well as cleanup on a dilapidated site. It is a shame they can't clean up the Wetlands as well. Talk about an eyesore.

For Juan and those that think high end retail isn't going to happen consider that the median income in 90803 is $104,000. That's for a 50,000 population and doesn't even consider nearby seal beach who's median income is just under 100k. Also, at the Nordstrom in fashion island, 10% of sales is from 90803.

There is plenty of draw for high end retail if there was a place to put it.

lbresident ----50,000 est.? That is nowhere near enough of a population base to convince an upscale retailer to consider a location. The Palos Verdes/Rolling Hills/San Pedro area has a larger population with far higher estimated income levels than what you mentioned. Yet, that wasn't able to sustain a Saks Fifth Ave. at the PV Mall. The reality is Bloomingdales, Nordstrom, etc., will factor in the entire demographics of a community much larger than 50,000. However, nice try on your part.

I'm not doing an entire analysis for you Juan. I was giving you one data point. Consider the 200,000 people in east long beach with an average income of over $70k plus seal and the fact that a good development would draw from even outside lb and seal and it's not too hard to figure it out. There are valid reasons to think this project doesn't make sense but the lack of demographics to bring in high end retail is not one of them.

This is not meant to be flippant, but I really wonder why someone who doesn't live in Long Beach has such a vested interest in issues (infrastructure bond, local developments, belmont shore parking commission, etc.) critical to those living here. You have every right to comment but it's hard to believe you have the right perspective considering you don't benefit or suffer from the actions pursued.

Perhaps its just my enthusiasm for wanting to exercise my first amendement right to freedom of speech. Whatever the case, I am a former Long Beach resident, and I've seen how poor decisions have ruined a city with probably more potential than any other in our state.
First, let's examine the realities of development projects in Long Beach. Chronologically, you don't have to do much research. What was perceived for downtown, has not materialized. Yet, the 90802 zip code had one of the highest appreciable real estate perimeters in the nation. Did that make Cityplace of The Pike more successful? Purporting a similar argument, for what you hope will transpire at 2nd & PCH, is not realistic. Not when you have Cerritos Mall right up the 605, and better shopping opportunities in Orange County. If this project comes to fruition, you may get a couple of small boutique store. However, don't hold your breath for Neiman Marcus.

To LB resident (above)

As a woman shopper I have to tell you-you are off base! If one can believe
the SEADIP survey, high-end retail was NOT at the top of the list from the community. (in fact it was a low write in). Speciality retail was top, (examples: Apple Computer store/jewelry store) One of the growing trends in Speciality retail are the carts and kiosks in Malls. Speciality Retail was followed by a close second for recreation facilities. This is a small property, (10.5 acres acording to city), there is no room for a store the size of Nordstroms, Macys, or any of the other large stores women would frequent maybe twice a month. We might have had high-end retail at Marina Pacifica, (we all cried when Buffums left) but instead Loeman's was given a 3 million dollar incentive by city to locate there.
We have some lovely stores at the Market Place as well as Belmont Shore.
Remember...the SEAPORT MARINA property is zoned only for a hotel. No residential nor retail allowed. And as a woman with a very healthy income I, like many others, have discovered other ways to spend money during these hard economic times. Even, and perhaps especially rich people watch their finances!

Why are people even talking about retailers like Neiman Marcus? How many times have you guys driven by the property - it's really not even that big. This is supposed to be a small shop quaint walkable retail street and who wouldn’t want that? I, for one, would like a well designed place to go to for upscale dinners and for everyday shopping. I’m tired of driving out of Long Beach to satisfy these needs. Additionally, I would love a place were my family and friends can come and stay – a hotel that I’m not ashamed of and one that shows how great Long Beach really is. Look – of course, developers are developers and they have their own agendas… but, given the history of failed attempts to develop this property and having met the development team at one of their presentations, I find it ridiculous that you guys aren't at least supporting the process that these guys are going through - I finally have some say in what's going to happen there - why don't you all try giving some real feedback to them to help them develop something you actually want or could at least deal with vs. just complaining. I’m a long time Naples resident and I honestly think this would be an asset to our community. I’m tired of people with nothing better to do than to shut projects down like this that could benefit me, my family and my friends.

I haven't stated that Long Beach shouldn't support this project. However, you only need to examine the most recent development history, in the city, to conclude that most of these proposals never satisfy what was originally presented. I agree, a nice upscale hotel would do wonders for that property. Whether this group can deliver it, will be the question.

Juan, there is a difference between value of real estate (your 90802 example) and high incomes (like in 90803). Real estate can't buy things but incomes can.

I didn't say Neiman Marcus. Obviously that is too big for the site. But how about Brooks Brothers or smaller high end boutiques?

And people drive to Cerritos because they can't drive to LB because there is nothing to drive to.

And yes you do have the right to exercise your freedom of speech. I said as much. I guess I just wonder why you don't do it on issues in your own town. Since you don't have to deal with the crappy infrastructure, lack of high end retail, etc. that we all do on a daily basis, it's a bit disingenuous to encourage people to vote against anything that might actually make some positive changes.

Naples Resident has it right. The naysayers never have anything constructive to say. They just try to kill everything and anything.

surfer meg I wasn't drawing a distinction between high end and specialty. fundamentally I think the property would do well with the stores you listed. I don't think high end and specialty have to be mutually exlcusive.

In response to lbresident:

Juan, there is a difference between value of real estate (your 90802 example) and high incomes (like in 90803). Real estate can’t buy things but incomes can.

1.Yes, but one can surmise that high property values equates high income levels. Then again, many speculatores were purchasing downtown LB property during the hot real estate market.


I didn’t say Neiman Marcus. Obviously that is too big for the site. But how about Brooks Brothers or smaller high end boutiques?

2.Perhaps. However, who will shop their stores on a regular basis? How can these store be convinced that they can achieve a positive return on investment? Its plausible, but they will expect at sometime to be profitable.


And people drive to Cerritos because they can’t drive to LB because there is nothing to drive to.

3.Long Beach blew the opportunity when the downtown mall closed. What could have served as a distinct opportunity to positively provide better retail for your city, was squashed by the Walmart anchored Cityplace project. That particular concept, added no value to the surrounding area, and did not give many Long Beach shoppers the alternative they were hoping for.


And yes you do have the right to exercise your freedom of speech. I said as much. I guess I just wonder why you don’t do it on issues in your own town. Since you don’t have to deal with the crappy infrastructure, lack of high end retail, etc. that we all do on a daily basis, it’s a bit disingenuous to encourage people to vote against anything that might actually make some positive changes.

4. The project will produce a positive change if its done correctly. Frankly, that's a frequent, opposite occurance in Long Beach.

Naples Resident has it right. The naysayers never have anything constructive to say. They just try to kill everything and anything.

5. Naples Resident won't be too happy if what starts out as a high-end hotel project ends up becoming a Best Western or Motel 6.

To Naples Resident,
I hate to burst your bubble, but you have very little to say about the Project's development, (except perhaps how you want your median landscaped)
If you had attended several of the presentations, you would realized nothing has changed despite the negative response. And yes, the public has given their input-to no avail.

Dave's title says it all. We do have zoning laws. The developers are completely arrogant and think they can ignore height, density, and most importantly what is suppose to be built on that parcel. And so instead of a slam-dunk project with a 5 star hotel (which east Long Beach deserves) they are trying to push this mismash on us, and instead of 5 stars, they want to add in a Joie de Vivre brand hotel which deals mainly in 3 stars. So the process will go on and on.
And Naples resident, I can't believe you want a 12 story tower there with an above ground parking structure.

Juan, your last post was rational. But basically the theme is "LB has screwed up so many times I don't want to give them another chance." The problem wih that is that you remove any opportunity for bettering our community. Why not let this process play out, demand as residents the amenities, etc. we want, and if we don't get it in the builder's contract, we don't support it and the project never gets built. That is what happened with Lennar. They wouldn't pony up or compromise and they didn't get their project.

At least for this new development team they seem to be listening. It may be a small concession but at least it's heading in the right direction that they have reduced the condo amount from what Lennar proposed by 100 condos. My bet is they don't end up proposing a 12 story building but rather 1 tower with a height of 6. Maybe some can live with that.. The wetlands trust folks can't but they are the minority (I believe). All I'm saying is let the thing progress a little before we say LB could never bring in quality retail, build a nice looking building, etc. Don't defeat the thing before the game is in the first quarter.

Maybe you haven't been here in awhile but East Long Beach has a very strong retail demographic these days without an East Long Beach shopping option. Your contention that the area can't support it is false in my opinion.

I live not far from the fabulous intersection of 2nd St/PCH and I am in favor of a new hotel. But not one bigger than what is currently there. Certainly nothing that will be 8-12 stories.
If it is zoned for a hotel, then just build a nice hotel for this side of LB.
I sure as heck do not want any residential units there. We all know traffic is horrible and, in my opinion, nothing they put there will be worth the increased traffic it is sure to bring (shame on Mr. Ratkovich for assuming residents would think that).
And who the heck do the developers think they are by asking to ignore the zoning laws? Very nervy of them. But, with DeLong running the show, they're sure to get their wish. Too many times it's been obvious he does not have the best interest of the 3rd District in mind.
This whole thing bothers me. Will the city/DeLong really listen to what the residents want? Of course not. The developers will have their 12-story buildings and those of who live in the area will have to suffer with even more traffic.
As it is, I try to refrain from traveling south of Loynes on PCH. I miss my family, but...

To Long Beach Resident.
People are brighter than you think!
This project is bigger than Lennars!
Compare:
Lennar had seven stories-highest point (35 feet is zoning max)
450 residential units
170,000 sf retail space
1700 parking spaces (not enough-needed variance)

New Project 12 stories highest point
450 living spaces with hotel*
200,000 sf retail
1900 parking spaces, (not adequate)
20,000 sf commercial/office
*According to web site today: 100 hotel rooms, 100 residential condos that are affliated with hotel and 250 residential units in addition to hotel condos.
This should NOT proceed further as it is against our zoning laws and the majority of the public don't want it. They should instead get started with a developer who can see the magic that is there. A beautiful low rise hotel that conforms to our zoning as well as the Coastal Act. Dragging this out forever will just end up where Home Depot did and that is a huge waste of time and money.

PS. I am not a member of the Wetlands
L.C.

Your facts are outdated. They cut the total living spaces to 325. We'll see what happens with height. Negotiation works better than outright opposition to everything without talking...